Slamming. Everything you said in the intro is true.
Dang son. No Dutante part in that “dream video” lineup? Where’s the love bro, where’s the love?
Well, I assume he’s considering this a hypothetical situation, ie: people he’d probably never get to do full parts with. He and Durante have been filming together for like 100 years. But just think, it’s highly likely that if it weren’t for Andrew, Durante may have never been seen by the rest of us. It’s crazy how important a good filmer can be to a city or region. Giving a voice to a whole scene of skaters that people might never have known existed otherwise.
That was a treat
Correct. And the same thing can be said vice versa. Without skateboarders or a “scene”, a filmer would have nothing to document. It’s not one sided. So I’m interested in why Workshop(or Burton) doesn’t have this dude on salary? I mean it seems like with Durante, Dill, Fred, Tim O’Connor, and Al Davis all around here, how is it that they justify not having this dude on salary? What exactly is it that he would have to do to justify a salary from these guys? Is it that he simply doesn’t produce enough footage? Does that mean it’s the skater’s he’s filming’s fault if he’s not making a salaried living off his obvious talent? Also, I’m interested in your’s and his thoughts on whether you think the skateboard video is still “profitable”? I mean if it’s not, couldn’t you say it’s not the internet’s fault that it killed the profitability of the skateboard video(or even the “order” that the skateboard video used to provide), but rather the skateboarder(including the filmer) by posting things like this on the web(“youtube channel’s” and even websites like this one) that’s killing the “profitability”(and essentially the medium)of the “skateboard video”? Again, doesn’t it then make it harder for dudes like Petillo to make a living off their talent? Do you think Workshop is justified not having him on salary?
Joey, josh shits on everyone when he picks up a camera.
no homo
I feel like Petillo’s videos are more like the modern equivalent of zines than they are some shitty manifestation of a wack skateboarding industry. It’s free and sick and he does it because he feels like it. But yeah, the Workshop is not tite.
You also seem to be trying to advance the argument that Petillo is fucking himself by putting stuff online for all to see. Whether or not he’s losing money doing this is one thing, but again, don’t you think that he does it because he thinks it’s worthwhile? Perhaps he gets something out of it. I remember telling him how psyched I was on his videos the last time I saw him, perhaps he does what he does for himself and for skaters like me. Can you imagine this, skaters just doing shit for kicks rather than always having a paycheck in mind? I mean, who really expects to make that much money skating anyway? I don’t know, when I was a kid I used to only get psyched on those skaters who would likely do it for free anyway; anyone else was just kind of a pussy to me. That’s not exactly how I feel now—in particular, I feel some pros deserve to be compensated for the sick shit they’ve done over the years—but I still don’t think it’s crazy to expect skaters to be primarily concerned with skating rather than a paycheck.
there are, unfortunately, hundreds of ‘talented’ filmers willing to do the job for free. do they have the eye that dudes who should be getting paid have? shamefully, no, and thus once again justice loses and people who should be paid are not.
What I don’t understand is if Petillo has masses of unseen/old footage of all those guys who people want to see, turn that shit into a video in itself. All those youtube videos are amazing. I’ve watched the Larry Perkins video 100 times at least. He should throw all that shit together, the footage is all already there, no extra filming required, trips to be taken, or even tapes to be used. Make copies and sell that shit.. if he really wanted to make some money off of it at least. Maybe he is just doing it out of love, if so that’s sick.
I also agree with Scowl that if he is already filming the the majority of the North East dudes on Burtshop that’s crazy that he isn’t getting a monthly check in the mail. At least the gig he has going ain’t too bad though, extra income whenever he needs it, and filming some of the best dudes.
..you know, I work on it for three month, he gonna take the expert there, execute Larry Perkins right out the picture man
edit was sick too
Well, there’s a lot to address here in the comments. Ultimately, I think one of the least important issues is that of “making money” off a video. It often infuriates me when people insinuate that making money off a video someone has spent 1-2 years of hard work to create is somehow ethically questionable. If someone creates a product it is only sensible that they should expect to somehow recoup their investment from the people who use and enjoy said product. Unless your video is a breakout landslide success, you are pretty much guaranteed to lose money on a full-length independent video. Aside from the costs of travel, resources like gas, food, hotels, equipment, etc, there is the unseen expense of time. Every day that is invested in producing a video is a day the filmmaker is not working. And unless he lives at home and his family is paying for his food, gas and car, this is the biggest expense of all.
For people to even raise the issue of a filmer “making money off of skateboarding” is as ludicrous as questioning why skateboard companies don’t give their boards away for free or why pro skaters would expect compensation for shoes being sold with their name on them.
And the symbiotic relationship between a filmmaker and a skater is solid proof of the value of a good filmer/filmmaker to a scene. Consider the relationship between Petillo and Durante, Mulhern and Jimmy MacDonald or Joe Perrin and Jimmy Lannon. If it weren’t for these filmmakers’ efforts to provide a platform for these skaters to be showcased it’s doubtful that they would’ve ever gone beyond local-legend status and been seen by the rest of the world, ie: gain the support of sponsors.
It definitely goes both ways though. If a filmmaker doesn’t have talented skaters to work with it becomes much more difficult for them to produce a watchable body of work. But this is why most filmers have relocated to California or other more skate-heavy cities. A filmer can usually always find skaters who need to be filmed. But it’s far more difficult to scare up a decent filmer who’s willing to give up all of his spare time to film skaters for little to no pay.
So you’re saying the skateboard video was never profitable? I assume you mean the “independent” skateboard video. And I also assume your speaking of your personal experiences with the “independent skateboard video”. But that’s not essentially what I mean. I’m speaking more broadly of the overall skateboard video. Most specifically, the board brand video. Say a Habitat or Workshop video. Is it your belief that the modern day skateboard video is now always going to take a loss? And if so, why? Is there a way to make a profitable skateboard video?
Man, I like that, “The Scowel”! Thanks Psy Flo!
Also, I’m a bit confused here. Who suggested that making money off a video is “ethically questionable”?
Now the next issue to be discussed was raised by the Rag. Is the production and release of internet edits like those posted by Petillo and Strobeck on Youtube or on web/blog sites like Theories of Atlantis contributing the the demise of the profitability of the classic skateboard video?
This is another hairy issue for which I have strong personal feelings. To be perfectly honest, the demise of the classic video format was started over 15 yrs ago with the advent of the video magazine. 411VM ushered in the make-a-quick-buck era of videomaking. With 411’s success in it’s early years came a whole slew of bandwagon copycats, until we soon had at least SIX different video magazines world-wide cataloguing skaters beauty secrets and bowel movements. You can only milk a barren cow so much. And this was happening during one of skateboarding’s low-points, mind you. Eventually 411 turned into a larger company with more and more employees and a more ambitious business plan. So eventually they started making far more than just their bi-monthly videos and the next thing we knew we were being choked with Mike V Fist-Fight-Across-America videos and Greatest Moments in Infertility videos highlighting every way not to descend a handrail with your ballsack. It soon reached absurdity. And the skateboard companies began to follow suit and started producing a video every time one of their skaters got a haircut. So the market became completely flooded and shop owners couldn’t afford to carry some of the more meaningful independent videos because their shelves were stacked with Emerica “How to get Harley Davidson to pay for your entire summer tour” videos and other nonsense.
Next came what was possibly the biggest blow to the sanctum of the classic skate video format, the FREE full-length company video. I believe it was Real Skateboards who was the first culprit. But definitely not the last. This trend drove down video prices and made it nearly impossible for indy filmmakers to compete in a world of corporate-backed companies giving away what is one of skateboarding’s most important art-forms and most driving cultural forces.
So it is a very unfriendly world out there for the independent filmmaker. To get your video noticed amongst the gaggle of random videos flooding the market is tough enough, but to make back the money on your investment is pretty much the most unwinnable battle of all. So, naturally, kids started relying on the internet to get their work out and seen by the rest of the world. Even great filmers like Petillo and Strobeck occasionally go this route. Maybe because they don’t have the means to invest into producing hard copies and getting them distributed? I don’t know. Although if either of these guys had just released all of their edits on a dvd they’d be instant cult favorites around the world. But it’s never that simple. Just because you’ve got a great video on your hands doesn’t mean it will be a success. You next have to find the right distributors, around the US and the world, get their contact info and convince them that your video is worth carrying. Which is always a battle. If you get through to them and they actually order copies, the next battle is hounding them to make sure to stay on top of shops to re-order. They’ve got a million other products to sell and their profit margins on skate videos is so tiny that it goes overlooked. And then, after all is said and done, actually getting paid is a whole other kettle of fish.
All in all, it ain’t an easy venture and it requires having a credit card or some cash to invest in the beginning and then crossing your fingers that it will sell. So, I think that a lot of filmers just figure it’s easier to go the route of publishing internet videos and calling it a day.
It’s up for debate how this effects the video industry as a whole. But, regardless, the blame is far more on the companies and corporate prospectors who’ve tried to milk the video industry for all it’s worth. And lemme tell you, it ain’t worth that much.
In other “news”, http://www.areyouavictim.com/node/868
No, I never said that the independent video was never profitable. It definitely was for a while. I mean shit, ask Dan Wolfe. Underachievers wrecked shop. But as the video market got overexploited, as stated above, it became increasingly more and more difficult to do so.
As for company videos like Habitat and AWS, this is a different story. Honestly, if you have a shoe/board brand to promote, the least of your worries is making money off of your video. As long as you recoup your expenses I think you’re chilling because the sole focus is promoting your brand. But, I’m sure that Workshop made a hefty profit off of their video and Habitat videos definitely recoup the expenses invested into their production. The way to make a profit off a video these days is to cut down on travel, charge a reasonable price for your dvd, rape the filmers who contribute footage and take on as many sponsorships as possible. Obviously, some of these options are not ones I would be ok with accepting for my own videos. But many others will, without question. Making an ethical, yet interesting, video and not losing money, that’s really the biggest challenge.
Aren’t we then just “repeating history”? I mean sure 411 was the beginning of the end. But isn’t this the same thing except now for no profit whatsoever and now with thousands of individual 411’s? I mean I’m not saying this is necessarily good or bad, what I’m saying is that Andrew Petillo, a kid your saying is a the forefront of modern day filming and video making, cannot receive a salaried paycheck from one of the largest fake skateboard manufacturers, Alien Workshop, I mean Burton. So what I’m asking is where exactly are we going here? Are we, as controllers of our destinies, and would be controllers of our industry and culture, being spun out of control by big industry, technology, or by our own devices? You see what I’m getting at here? What is breaking up skateboarding and the “skateboard industry”?
Oh and by the way, we just had a “9/11 Truther” shoot up the Pentagon.
And as far as the comments about “making money off a video” have come on this post and at other times in this site. And as well have been big platforms for attacks on the Slap boards. Like above where Psyched said above that it would be “sick” if people like Petillo was releasing his internet edits just for fun. I don’t necessarily agree though because I would again liken it to a board company giving their products away for free. If Jahmal was giving away his Hopps boards I would be pissed. Becuase it would mean that a good company with good ideals and good products was fucking themselves and deserved better than that. And, in my opinion, when east coast filmers like Strobeck, Petillo, Perrin, Mulhern, Ryan Garshell, Alex Pelletier, Joe Bressler, Rob Harris, Allen Danze, Brad Rosado, and Scott Wagoner are so few in number and so sought after for their skills, they should be compensated for the endless time they put into their craft. Filmers are often the biggest benefactors of their scene, often not profiting a single penny for their efforts. And that needs to change.
I ain’t saying I disagree with you, Towel. It’s definitely a very valid point. I offer my help to a lot of these filmmakers to help produce their videos if they’re interested in doing so because I think the classic form of the full-length video is an important thing to protect. But, honestly, doing a full video is a mountainous challenge. And a lot of people just don’t have the energy or patience. So they take the route of Youtube. But I wouldn’t hold them personally accountable for the trouble that videos are in. The companies are far more responsible.
“Theories is about to get a lot more gangster.”
So let me ask you this then, do you think Petillo “deserves” to be on Workshop/Habitat/Burton salary? Why do you think he’s not?
Also, how are the companies far more responsible? Can companies demand consumers give them their money?
Why would you give a company money when you can get something for free?
To be honest I never claimed Petillo was/wasn’t on salary. Maybe he is? I don’t know. That’s a bit personal to ask in an interview. I know he has been on retainer off and on in the past. Which is different than salary. He definitely deserves to be though, considering he films with Freddy, Durante, Al Davis and O’Connor on the regular and occasionally others on the Habitat/Alien team.
What kind of question is “why would you give a company money when you can get something for free?”. That makes no sense. You’re talking about two different things. Petillo’s edits are short 2 minute edits that aren’t really based around heavy serious skating. Company and indy full-length videos are different entities that usually take 1-2 years to produce. It’s like the difference between a TV show and a feature film. People aren’t going to pay to watch a TV show but they’ll drop $12.50 for a feature film.
And that Pentagon shooting is absolutely ape-nuts. Alex Jones has been shouting for weeks and weeks about how the government is going to start staging attacks that will be blamed on 9/11 Truthers, Constitutionalists and the Tea Party movement and now we’ve seen 2 high profile attacks in the past 2 weeks that have been blamed on exactly that. And, as always, the culprits are people that were seen as normal, mild-mannered, good people by all those who knew them. This is incredible.
“And the skateboard companies began to follow suit and started producing a video every time one of their skaters got a haircut.”
So funny- but also so sad, and so true.
I hear all the points about videos, profitability, filmakers, etc. There are some very valid points,I’d just like to add that the internet provides access. I can’t get any of the videos I prefer to watch, in my country, but the internet gives me access to videos.
Perhaps a possible way to go in the future is to pay for downloads of skate videos online. If I want to watch something, I’ll pay for it, in fact I want to support the people who put in hardwork to make these videos. I usually try and buy up originals of all the videos I want when travelling to other countries, but what about others who don’t have the luxury of being able to travel, should they just be denied access?
In the end, I see youtube edits as a good thing, it gives as much access to me as it does to anybody else around the world with an internet connection. Many of you would be suprised to learn about how far and wide these videos are appreciated. Perhaps these clips should be used as bridges between video projects instead of replacing them, I see the clips and they definately encourage me to keep following the particular filmaker into whatever venture they may undertake.
I don’t see the web videos replacing skate videos, I see them adding to skateboard documentation. Nothing online can replace having an actual dvd, well, not to me anyway.
I believe Petillo pretty much said he wasn’t in the interview. I mean that’s what it sounded like to me. And what I meant is that I got the Lakai video for free the day it came out on the internet. I don’t even know how I got it. I think that shit just showed up on my computer. Also, most videos come out for free on companies websites now. I mean shit, you can go to the fucking Shanti-Hero website(?) for fucking christ’s sake and watch Chris Pfanner huck himself off some gigantic thing into a ditch every Friday night. Like I said, why pay when it’s provided for you? Again, the skateboarders themselves are destroying the art form. But hey, if that’s the way it’s going these days, it seems there’s not gonna be much you or I can do about it. It’s like shit, you wanna wear Adidas or Nike and legitimize a non-skate brand that’s actually destroying the ability of legit skate brands to do their business, then go right ahead. But that’s just the way I see. If I were you and had a position of influence in skateboarding, I would be asking all the personal questions I could because that’s the only way people are gonna find out the truth about what’s really at stake here. Or you can keep quiet and sit back and watch the industry devour itself and then complain about it later. It’s like watching a Michael Moore film.
Let me ask you a question. Do you have to pay to get onto The Berrics?
Well, I just read all the newest comments. I actually don’t have time to write a very long response right now but I’ll say one thing really quickly. You seem to be claiming that skate videos being free online is the fault of the producers.
Within literally HOURS of Static III hitting store shelves, it was already posted on several Youtube accounts. The following day it was being linked and “file-shared” on the Slap boards. I had no say in this. I did all I could to get the shit taken down. But, in the end, there is nothing we can do about this shit any more. Kids are ruthless. Our culture has become so disconnected from the original source that most people don’t give a shit if they’re stealing from somebody. It’s there for the taking so they’re going to take it. You almost can’t blame them. It’s the assholes who go out of their way to post the videos online who’s motivation is so bizarre to me. But there’s no way to stop them.
This discussion is partly about piracy vs obscurity. Don’t you think that being pirated is much better than no one knowing who the hell you are?
Being pirated means people want access to your art; there’s a demand. It’s up to us artists to figure out how to best capitalize on that demand. Selling things that are so easily digitally copied probably isn’t a good path to go forward. Copy protection is easily circumvented and is just an arms race really. Kids raised on the internet and copying files don’t have the same context, perspective, or appreciation that you have for physical media because they have almost no experience with physical media. Media has changed and there’s no going back now.
Musicians in other countries have known for years they can’t sell their music, but they can throw parties and play all kinds of remixed versions of that music; they sell an experience that’s beyond mp3s or cds.
Selling paid member accounts on this site might be a good start as an experiment, offering premium content and access to a deeper community.
Use this audience here to figure out what people want, other things you could monetize on, how you can reach new audiences and re-connect with the same people in different ways.
Just some thoughts at 6am…
Josh I’m on your side, but it’s up to us artists to make the money and make this work.
You can’t compare your output, your process or your financial success to a corporate-made video. Most visual artists make less than $10,000 year and most of them have side jobs and other means of making money.
So my question to you is where does that leave the independent video artist, especially when a majority of your audience is comfortable sharing media?
Josh, you are right. The full-length DVD is a dying business model and artform. One reason your shit shows up online immediate is people want to talk about it with others… so they make it available in a way that their online friends can see it and talk about it with them. There is excitement toward your product there that may not be directed through the channels you would prefer but this enthusiasm should not be overlooked. There is some sort of market online for your videos. The trouble is finding out what this market is worth.
People assume the internet is free and often expect all of the content they find to be that way too. But the trouble with internet is that there is too much noise… it’s hard to find the stuff that is well-crafted, artful, and inspiring. What percentage of people are willing to pay something out of their wallet to bypass this noisy hassle? And how much are they willing to pay? And what are they looking for? Individual parts; a full-length video? The spectrum must be broad of course… some people don’t want to pay anything, some wouldn’t mind paying a little, some would pay more. And some might even want a $20-30 piece of plastic… but I think you’ve already experienced that the number in that last group is on a major decline and the channels to reach (distribution, etc) them are convoluted and a pain in the ass.
Of course I don’t have any answers to solve this scenario with everyone getting lots of money in their pockets, but people are not going to be getting less media from the internet in the future and it is likely there will be even more crap online to sift through to find the good bits. Why not offer something for everyone? Some free content, some short low-cost content, some longer low-cost content, and some plastic discs for those that still like that sort of thing? It needs to be all easily accessible and it’s up to you to make sure there is more legit free content in more places than pirated content, because to the end user, what’s the difference? If the quality is all the same it’s just more dope shit to look at and share with their friends… and some of their friends may actually be less broke and willing to pay something to see even more dope shit.
No one is forcing him to put the edits up. If he is just doing it out of love, or just wants to do it, how are you going to argue it isn’t even just a little cool? He is giving the people what they want, little miniature cult classics featuring skaters people are psyched on.
If he wanted to turn them into a DVD it would be that easy. All of the videos on his youtube channel could be a full length video in itself. I’m sure he could find enough sponsors to have 1,000+ copies made. Then it would be an even bigger cult classic because it would be so “limited.” So there has to be some sort of reason why he hasn’t done that yet.. or maybe that boy jus stoopit.
Do they make DVDs that are “un-copyable?”
company with good ideals, yes. good ideas? debatable..
http://hypebeast.com/2009/07/hopps-skateboards-2009-summer-collection/
profound!
Alphabet series coming soon!
I’m from the youtube generation and I’m grateful for all the footage. If it wasn’t on youtube, I’m not sure how much I’d actually end up watching. For skaters, youtube is an amazing thing, watching everything gives me a lot of perspective I wouldn’t have had if I never had it, Natas to Nate Broussard, it’s all there and I love it. I have to say this though, just because youtube is my primary source doesn’t mean I, and a lot of other dudes, don’t buy actual skatevids, my collection keeps growing as I get the funds. I can’t buy everything that comes out, thats just not possible. I think full videos have to keep happening otherwise a lot of footy gets losts in the tides of time. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen something but don’t remember where I saw it and can’t find it because it was some random clip that doesn’t exist anymore or the site gets taken down.
Good points, Jess. I wish there were more skaters out there who made a point of supporting the projects they’re stoked on.
And, Psyched Floridian, if there were such a thing as an un-rippable, “un-copyable” dvd, don’t you think that Hollywood would’ve invented such a thing at this point? No matter what, there’s always a way around it. Kids will film that shit off their TV screen and post it on Youtube. I’ve seen a few parts from Static III on Youtube that were done exactly like that.
And to Abstract Hat and Red Labor. Very good points, ideas and suggestions indeed. But, the reality is that offering “premium” paid access to Theories or a site like this is assuming that people are THAT stoked on seeing our content every day. Which, with around 500 readers/day is a bit doubtful right now. In order to create enough original content for this site to justify charging for membership, I’d have to turn down half of the jobs I do for other people and focus almost all of my energy into Theories of Atlantis. And even with that it would be a HUGE risk to hope that enough people would be down to pay for access to support the energy, time and money going into it to keep it afloat. I’ve been taking huge risks with my skate videos ever since “Cigar City” in 1996. And I don’t regret it (hence putting out a new video every 2 years since) I’ve also never profited off those risks. Usually taking pretty big losses. So, it’s all a very risky and uncharted battleground that we’re dealing with and there’s no obvious path. I guess the only obvious thing out of all of it is that the old way of doing things, depending solely on video sales to recoup your investment, is not working any more. And those of us who are purists who want to cry foul every time these old conventions are challenged are going to be left in the dust if we don’t learn to adjust and sway with the changing tide.
Doesn’t mean the classic full-length video has to die. The printed magazine doesn’t even have to die. It just needs to be approached a different way.
May need to start a Theories think-tank to figure it all out.
in the music world, a lot of bands these days rely heavily on touring to bring in the bucks.
I know it sounds weird, but skateboarding has gotten so huge that I could almost imagine it working, touring a video city to city, rent a theater to screen it and have the shops promote it, 10 bucks at the door, have some recognizable pros there to introduce the thing or answer some questions. It would probably be really hard to do, ever consider it though?
and I mean beyond premiering it, as a capitalist venture…
Petillo gives the inspiration to my film-work.
1. by Joey P on March 03 at 07:49 PM